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Hybrid or Plug In Hybrids would seem to be best compromise. Electric charge costs at commercial charge points are likely to be similar to petrol pump prices the way things are going!
 

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This needs some fact-checking I'm afraid:

I can see the logic in cities for reducing emissions and improving air quality and range is not an issue, but even that is in doubt due to high levels of particulates continuing from brakes, tyres and road surface material.
In general, EVs produce distinctly less particulate pollution than fossil cars. To start with there's obviously no tailpipe particulate emissions. And then EVs use regen rather than friction brakes in the main, so brake wear is much less. And traction control is faster-acting in general on EVs than the mechanical systems on fossil cars, so less tyre particulates (though admittedly a few EVs like the Kona are less than clever on this front - EVs are generally better if rear driven, unless 4WD)

But for widespread use to tackle climate change there are too many problems such as lack of electricity generating capacity and charging infrastructure, and at the moment much of the electricity is still produced by gas fired power stations.
The country of course needs a long-term strategy and plan for generating capacity to replace elderly plant and to reduce carbon intensiveness over time, whatever 'fuel' powers cars. But EVs don't add much to the generating capacity needed. Consider, for example, that EVs are mostly charged at night when only around 50% of peak generating capacity is actually in use for other things (see eg GB Fuel type power generation production ). And if you're going to make electricity from fossil fuels at all then gas is the least polluting option. (The jury seems to be out on biomass.)

The rush to EVs and ban on sales of new petrol & diesel vehicles is dangerously premature. Hydrogen, either for fuel cells to power EVs or internal combustion with zero emissions, offers a far better solution but is still a few years away.
Whatever the theoretical pros and cons of 'green' hydrogen (as opposed to hydrogen produced from 'black' or 'blue' processes - by far the main ways of making hydrogen at present and which are badly polluting in themselves) it is way too far behind EVs ever to become commercially successful now. Yes, there may well be good applications for hydrogen in buses, HGVs and maybe ships and trains too, but cars, no, that ship has sailed.
 

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One of the unspoken "problems" with EV's is their weight and the resulting increased damage to roads and infrastructure. Who is going to pay? EV's are lightly taxed but that cannot go on long-term they need to pay for the increased wear on roads etc.
 

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One of the unspoken "problems" with EV's is their weight and the resulting increased damage to roads and infrastructure. Who is going to pay?
Is that honestly much of a problem? EVs are typically 200-400kg (depending on car and battery size) than the equivalent fossil car, which is maybe 15-20%. And there are plenty of larger fossil cars on the road that weigh more than a smaller EV, not to mention the many, many heavily loaded vans and HGVs (especially). AIUI it's the large heavy vehicle that really tear up the road, not cars, whatever their size/weight.

EV's are lightly taxed but that cannot go on long-term they need to pay for the increased wear on roads etc.
Low tax on EVs cannot continue for much longer, that's for sure. But road wear isn't the argument. I'm pretty sure that road pricing will come in pretty soon and everyone will pay per mile driven for a given class of vehicle - it's the only fair way I can see.
 

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On the subject of fact-checking it seems you don't read the papers much @johnd , or don't believe what you read.

There have been a good many warnings published about the levels of particulates caused by EVs brakes and tyres and the extra weight makes the latter worse, along with increased wear of the road surface, and while energy recovery is useful it's main purpose is the put charge back into the battery and it is not designed as a replacement for conventional brakes. Used in conjunction with conventional brakes, it is just about enough to deal with the added weight of an EV.

But if I was driving at 70 mph and needed to brake in an emergency, I certainly wouldn't be relying on energy recovery to stop me in time.

As for tail pipe emissions, particulates and other emissions from modern petrol cars are greatly reduced, partly due to particulate filters, and partly due to much improved combustion. The net result is that EVs are no where near as 'clean' in comparison with modern petrol engines as people think.

And we haven't touched on the environmental impact of lithium mining and eventual battery disposal or recycling.

But I guess we all have our own opinions on these matters.
 

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On the subject of fact-checking it seems you don't read the papers much @johnd , or don't believe what you read.
Well, it's really a question of seeking out informed sources that actually know what they're talking about rather than believing the badly-researched scare stories that fill many of the papers (or websites like the Daily Mail) these days. I don't blame anyone for reading and believing these, but there is so much misinformation about EVs still circulating.

There have been a good many warnings published about the levels of particulates caused by EVs brakes and tyres and the extra weight makes the latter worse, along with increased wear of the road surface,
I don't doubt that there are many scare stories, it's the accuracy of such stories that I'm questioning.

and while energy recovery is useful it's main purpose is the put charge back into the battery and it is not designed as a replacement for conventional brakes. Used in conjunction with conventional brakes, it is just about enough to deal with the added weight of an EV.
It sounds like you've never driven an EV that's set up for good one-pedal driving. The regen retardation in B mode (alone) can be surprisingly strong and perfectly adequate to stop the car in most, if not all, normal driving situations, emergency stops excepted. But the friction brakes are still there to assist for the emergency situations of course.

And we haven't touched on the environmental impact of lithium mining and eventual battery disposal or recycling.
All mineral extraction involves some superficial impact on the environment, such as iron and aluminium extraction to make car bodies. That's just a fact of life. I've not seen anything to suggest that lithium is unusually bad in this respect. Indeed, one of the future resources suggested for lithium extraction at present is simply from sea water. That's not commercially viable yet, but early exploitation of lithium mining in Cornwall is well under way, which at least would provide us with a national source of the metal.

And what exactly about battery recycling/disposal is contentious? Modern EV battery are expected to have a life of maybe 30 years - first 15 years or so in their original car and then another similar period in second life in static batteries eg in houses or grid-scale batteries (to help grid stability). And plants to recycle EV batteries completely are already operating, though relatively scarce and unneeded as yet because the supply of EV batteries needing recycling is tiny as yet. But the technology is there as and when the requirement ramps up.

I should underline that I'm absolutely not seeking to offend anyone here, but it does rub me up the wrong way when I see tired old myths about EVs that might conceivably have been relevant 10 years ago still being trotted out in the mass media - it's just sad, tired journalism - the actual facts are not hard to find from authoritative sources on the web.

For full disclosure, no, I don't own an EV yet. I've done test drives (and actually placed but then cancelled a Jaguar I-Pace order - great car but on reflection really too big for me and it was launched prematurely with a number of teething problems, albeit mostly software just like many other non-EV cars at present) and keep up closely with developments. But there's not an EV yet available that really meets what I'm looking for, which is a compact SUV/crossover with 4WD and decent performance and range. The Cupra Born GTX (which will be the 4WD version) looks like potentially fitting the bill, but that's probably not going to be available for a year or more. In the meantime, I need to order a new fossil car and a new T Roc R is a prime contender, which is why I'm here of course. So, looking forward to the next week or two when more UK spec details of the facelift should be revealed.
 

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Hopefully we can all agree that there is a lot yet to learn about the true environmental impact of EV’s on a cradle to grave basis. Only when that is properly evaluated can we know the best way forward. We all remember the scramble to diesel of the 1990’s and how that worked out!
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 · (Edited)
Well, it's really a question of seeking out informed sources that actually know what they're talking about rather than believing the badly-researched scare stories that fill many of the papers (or websites like the Daily Mail) these days. I don't blame anyone for reading and believing these, but there is so much misinformation about EVs still circulating.



I don't doubt that there are many scare stories, it's the accuracy of such stories that I'm questioning.



It sounds like you've never driven an EV that's set up for good one-pedal driving. The regen retardation in B mode (alone) can be surprisingly strong and perfectly adequate to stop the car in most, if not all, normal driving situations, emergency stops excepted. But the friction brakes are still there to assist for the emergency situations of course.



All mineral extraction involves some superficial impact on the environment, such as iron and aluminium extraction to make car bodies. That's just a fact of life. I've not seen anything to suggest that lithium is unusually bad in this respect. Indeed, one of the future resources suggested for lithium extraction at present is simply from sea water. That's not commercially viable yet, but early exploitation of lithium mining in Cornwall is well under way, which at least would provide us with a national source of the metal.

And what exactly about battery recycling/disposal is contentious? Modern EV battery are expected to have a life of maybe 30 years - first 15 years or so in their original car and then another similar period in second life in static batteries eg in houses or grid-scale batteries (to help grid stability). And plants to recycle EV batteries completely are already operating, though relatively scarce and unneeded as yet because the supply of EV batteries needing recycling is tiny as yet. But the technology is there as and when the requirement ramps up.

I should underline that I'm absolutely not seeking to offend anyone here, but it does rub me up the wrong way when I see tired old myths about EVs that might conceivably have been relevant 10 years ago still being trotted out in the mass media - it's just sad, tired journalism - the actual facts are not hard to find from authoritative sources on the web.

For full disclosure, no, I don't own an EV yet. I've done test drives (and actually placed but then cancelled a Jaguar I-Pace order - great car but on reflection really too big for me and it was launched prematurely with a number of teething problems, albeit mostly software just like many other non-EV cars at present) and keep up closely with developments. But there's not an EV yet available that really meets what I'm looking for, which is a compact SUV/crossover with 4WD and decent performance and range. The Cupra Born GTX (which will be the 4WD version) looks like potentially fitting the bill, but that's probably not going to be available for a year or more. In the meantime, I need to order a new fossil car and a new T Roc R is a prime contender, which is why I'm here of course. So, looking forward to the next week or two when more UK spec details of the facelift should be revealed.
Being the Thread's OP, the development of my transition from TRoc to a Peugeot e2008 'BEV' has resulted in a very detailed & interesting 'Off-Topic' discussion.
For all the contributing posters, the links below should be of interest to those thinking about 'going electric'. :unsure:
I have contributed and benefited from both forums.

Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I have now had my new Peugeot e2008 GT for just over 1 month and am extremely satisfied with it. I soon adjusted to driving my first automatic after declutching & gear changing for over 50 years.
It is very comfortable, has a super high quality finished interior, amazingly quiet and smooth to drive with frightenly fast acceleration😯, woweeeee.

Regenerative braking is effective especially at low speeds so brake peddle action is minimal. Still sussing out all the tech gizmos, cockpit & info screen features.
The 3D iCockpit displays various stats including miles/kWh battery consumption currently 3.1m/kWh. At my home electricity contract price of 19.95p/kWh the fuel running cost is 6.43p/mile compared to approx 22p/mile with the high current cost of petrol.
(My Troc did 30mpg at £1.45p/ltr x 4.546ltr/g)
Current Octopus Energy off-peak electricity tariff of 7.5pkWh/peak 30p/kWh does not benefit me to switch tariffs whilst I am paying just 19.95p

So after a month I have no regrets about selling my TRoc.
PEUGEOT EV RUNNING COST UPDATE:
1. I have recently switched my electricity tariff from Octopus's standard flexible to its EV GO tariff with of off-peak charges of 7.5p/kWh. This applies when charging the car from 00:30hr to 04:30hr.

2. Energy consumption has now settled down at it's 'warm weather' air conditioning rate of 3.5 miles/kWh up from 3.1 so running costs are now just 2.143p/mile 😁.

I'm still extremely happy with car's performance and have no regrets for selling the TRoc with its £22k equity safely invested in Premium Bonds. 🤑
 
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Great stuff @JAMCT theres not a massive difference then in running costs 🤔🤷‍♂️

Mine only costs me 19.3P per mile in fuel if I'm lucky 😂🙈

I suppose your zero road tax should be factored in as well which cost us an extra £3.17 per week 🥴
 
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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
Great stuff @JAMCT theres not a massive difference then in running costs 🤔🤷‍♂️

Mine only costs me 19.3P per mile in fuel if I'm lucky 😂🙈

I suppose your zero road tax should be factored in as well which cost us an extra £3.17 per week 🥴
No road tax either😃. However how long before the government needs to apply some form of tax on Zero emissions vehicles?. A cost per mile seems to be a future replacement of the current tax regime.
In the meantime, luckily my electricity GO tariff of 7.5p off-peak/30.15p peak is FIXED to Mid March 2023 so my running costs won't be affected by the next price-cap increase from £1971 to around £3000 in October with electricity unit costs of over 40p/kWh! (peak rate)☹
 
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It sounds attractive, but I guess that you are assuming you will do most of your charging at home. One of the big problems with EV ownership is that huge numbers of people don't have access to home charging or have to recharge en-route during longer journeys and are therefore dependent on commercial or public sites where the cost per kWh is no doubt greater than your GO tariff. How do they compare ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
It sounds attractive, but I guess that you are assuming you will do most of your charging at home. One of the big problems with EV ownership is that huge numbers of people don't have access to home charging or have to recharge en-route during longer journeys and are therefore dependent on commercial or public sites where the cost per kWh is no doubt greater than your GO tariff. How do they compare ?
Yes, ALL my charging is at home as most trips out are local with my longest journey being a round trip of approx 30 miles. I've never needed to use a public charge point so do not know how much they cost whether at slow or fast charging rates.
Sadly my wife is housebound so being the nominated driver of her Motability supplied car, journeys are minimal with annual mileage being less than 2000 miles.
 
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